Taking the Team Seriously

David wants to know if Blair thinks it's harder for creative firms to find great prospective clients, or great employees, as they unpack how to attract the right candidates using a “lead generation” plan.

Ideas for “Lead Generation” of candidates:

  • Social media presence

  • Guest teach a single class at a known school that typically turns out a best student every semester

  • Offer your facility as a meeting place for trade/association meetings

  • Put a rotating art gallery with an open house when the display rotates

  • Quarterly webinar for prospective employees on topics they would be fascinated with, including guests (or even a podcast)

  • Skill-building workshops open to the community, bringing in expert teachers

  • Build a model that depends on a steady rotation of contractors to test them out

  • Keep a great relationship w/ employees who leave you—they are frequently your best people when they return after an interim education somewhere else


BLAIR ENNS: David, the title of this episode is Taking the Team Seriously. Pause. What the hell do you mean by that?

DAVID C. BAKER: That's the title, Taking the Team Seriously. What the hell do you mean?


Taking the Team Seriously.

BLAIR: Well, are you implying that agency principles don't pay enough attention to or prioritize the importance of the team?

DAVID: Yes, they think about subtracting from the team when they lose a bunch of business or somebody starts getting lippy. They start thinking about adding to the team when they have all of this new opportunity that falls in their laps and they just don't take it seriously as I'd like them to. Let me ask you this. You're in the whole new business. You own a new business side of thing, sales thing. Do you think it's harder for your clients to find great prospective clients or great employees?

BLAIR: I think from my point of view looking at their business, I think it's more difficult to find the right new business person than it is to find the right client. As soon as you have a pretty good person, then-- Is the employee factor hygiene issue? Meaning--

DAVID: [laughs] I can't wait to see how you finish this sentence. [laughs] A hygiene issue.

BLAIR: I'm now going to cite, I believe it's a Herzberg's motivator hygiene law or principle where you essentially take these things that people view as motivators and some of them really are motivators like a salary. Maybe people are motivated by money. I think I have said on this podcast before, I'm not really motivated by money except when it's not there. That's what hygiene is. It's something that you notice only when it's missing.

DAVID: Especially missing in the person next to you on the plane on a long flight. [laughs]

BLAIR: Says the guy who just got off the Transatlantic flight.

DAVID: A nine-and-a-half-hour flight. Not so much looking for a new business person, but finding key employees, how hard do you think that is in relation to how hard it is to find great clients and how good are principles at doing that?

BLAIR: I think that's a really good question. I haven't thought of it as an either/or before, but as you post the question, it occurs to me that some people are just great at culture. They're great at finding, hiring and retaining talent. Then others struggle with it all the time. The flip side of that is some principals and firms are just great at finding, landing and keeping new clients. I'm not sure that I see a pattern. You would be closer to this. I am certainly the HR side of things.

I'm not sure that I see a pattern of one being easier than the other, but you seem to be implying that it's easier to get clients than it is to get good people.

DAVID: I think in some cases, it is. It's true that just like you said which is really interesting. A lot of people are great at finding their clients. Other people are great at finding new employees. The magic I guess is somebody who can do both. It just strikes me as interesting that we have this whole system that's built up around how to find new clients and books and systems and processes and training. We don't really have much of that for finding and screening new employees. I think we want to do another episode, don't we, on how to screen new employees.

This is about more how to have a lead generation plan for employees. If we think about the classic new business issue, we are positioning this what makes you distinct in a marketplace, what might justify a price premium and then you take that to a marketplace with a lead generation plan. The positioning for finding great employees is your culture and we all know that, but what we are missing there is a lead generation plan for employees. That's the really crucial part that I think is worse thinking about.

BLAIR: That's what we're going to unpack today is essentially how do you attract new candidates to your firm. Is that right?

DAVID: Right. Other than just offering to pay them a lot of money. [laughs]

BLAIR: Do you want to hit some high-level points around the importance of a good team first?

DAVID: Yes and I think listeners are going to identify with it. It's not like I'm going to say something here and their eyes will open up and say, "Shoot. I never thought of that."

BLAIR: Just keep the next two minutes and come back to my next really intelligent question. Go ahead.

DAVID: If we run out of good things to say, I'll come back and fill the time with this. If you don't have great people, and this is particularly true if you have a larger firm, you never be able to extricate yourself from the work and concentrate on the things that the business really needs from you. What the business does not need from you is you touching the quality of the work. It's just not what the business needs from you.

If you don't have great people and you have to keep mocking around in that, then you're going to skip the things that the business needs like watching the financial performance and establishing positioning and working on the culture and all those other things. The other reason and this one is really- I think this is going to hit close to people's heart because I used to survey principals all the time about what did they get tired of first. The question wasn't exactly like that, but what do you get tired of first, your clients or your employees? Who wears you out first?

It used to always be the clients, but it's not anymore. It's an equal split and it keeps moving further and further towards employees. In other words, principal gets out of bed in the morning and then they're thinking about their workday. If they're not super excited about it, what is it that they dread about going to work that day? Nowadays, it's just as equally possible that it's the fact that they have a challenging employee issue to face.

If we're trying to set up a system where principals are excited into the indefinite future about running their firms, then we have to solve this people issue and then, of course, we have to solve the client issue as well, but those are related because the better your employees are the less you have to insert yourself into solving big planet issue. Those are the two big reasons I think that makes us worth it. The people don't already believe this is important, then they're probably not going to listen to this whole thing.

BLAIR: Let me just add some commentary to that. The first point is that you're not able to concentrate on what you suppose to do if you're constantly being dragged to the people issues or covering for people who maybe aren't the right people on the first place. As you were talking about that, I'm thinking, "Yet, that might be." When you think of the destructive principle or you think of the entrepreneur who cannot seem to find the time to do the high-value tasks, probably high on the list of reasons why it has to do with the quality of the people either they're not the right people, to begin with.

Jim Collins parlance have the right people on the bus, or you haven't properly equipped them. There's some human resources failure that keeps dragging you back to do things that other people can't seem to do properly.

DAVID: Right.

BLAIR: That's point number one. I think we can all identify with that. The second point is that you get tired of the business. You wrote me a little note here on this and you said, "If you know how to write team, you get angry and annoyed and slide into your premature exit because you're tired of people." I read that line. I thought, man, I have seen that so many times as a consultant, working with clients who said and a good percentage of them who backed it on the words, "I'm just fed up with my own people. I just can't handle this anymore. I'm thinking of just letting them all go and going back to being a solopreneur."

Walking away from the potential to multiply your revenue and your impact through the leverage of all of these people that you've added because it's all unwieldy you haven't been able to tame this beast and the people are requiring more of your attention rather than taking things away from you.

DAVID: Exactly. As a team, you could deal with this shitty client. They come along every once in a while. If you have a great team, you can commiserate, you can spread the burden out, you can handle it, you can spread the pressure, but if you don't have a great team, nothing is fun, nothing is fun at all. I'm just a little perplex about why we are not more proactive about building the right team which means-- Like a new business, we're always talking about this.

You and I are always talking about the fact that what gives us a little bit more courage, what makes it easier to have more courage is to have plenty of opportunities so that we have options, we can choose. The same thing out to be true with hiring employees and fixing mistakes quicker and so on. It is really is something that I think it's going to resonate with people that are listening.

BLAIR: Okay, you rank Taking the Team Seriously or all things HR and personnel as high as financial performance or right below financial performance on the list of priorities for a principal.

DAVID: Right below. It's hard to really rank this, but I think monitoring financial performance is the most important thing you have to do. Second would be the HR function and third would be the positioning because you could do the first two and you could still have a pretty good firm without a great positioning. This would be the second most important thing to do.

BLAIR: Are we looking for a pattern of person? Well, let me back up. I'll just hand it over to you. You walkthrough your framework if that’s what you’ll call it, for taking the team seriously and again we’re talking about essentially attracting people to the firm. Where do you start?

DAVID: Well, we have to know what kind of person we’re looking for. If we come across this person or if we don’t even have a specific person we’ve come across and we’re just looking for a particular kind of person, there has to be a list of the specific kind of person we’re looking for. This is not a positioning question. We don’t need to be different from other firms. In fact, when you read the different statements that firms put out, they do sound pretty similar. A lot of them have the same things on the list and that’s completely fine.

What is it that makes a great employee at your firm? What are the specific things that are important to you? I can’t answer this for other people. I’m actually really curious to see how you would answer this for your clients or maybe even for yourself since you have a team and I don’t. Things like curiosity, that seems so critical to me. If it’s important, then maybe that’s something we should screen for a little bit. We should have a conversation about. What about discipline? What about presence? Presence isn’t important for a designer, but it would be very important for an account person. What about collaboration? What about vulnerability, maybe that’s not important to you.

I don’t really care what’s on the list, but I do care that there is a list so that when you have somebody that you’re thinking about bringing aboard, that you have a list already built so that you can say, "Yes, these are the things I’m looking for". Does this make sense to you? What are the things that come to your mind when you think about this?

BLAIR: The first thing comes to mind is I read this to my wife who’s my business partner this morning and we’re hiring for two roles. Also we realized, "Oh my God, we don’t have a list". Then my first reaction was, do you have a standard universal list for all positions or should it vary by position? If it’s for all positions, is there some universal framework? If I think of we have five core values, so I would imagine that our list might fall out of those core values. Then I also think of we borrow Patrick Lencioni’s, I think it’s his model, of hungry, humble and smart and we interview against that.

We don’t do performance evaluations, but we do feedback sessions based on those three things. Are you hungry for work, are you ambitious, are you looking to do more, more, more? Are you humble in your communications with your teammates and your clients? I forget what smart is. I think it’s an acronym for something else. Clearly, I’m not in charge of this.


DAVID: Just there’s so many things I would love to say right now, but I’m just going to bite my lip.

BLAIR: We go back to that first question I posed, do you think a firm should have a list of attributes for all people in all positions? Or would you adapt this to the specific position?

DAVID: I think there should be some things that would be true of every employee. Honesty, although frankly I don’t really know how to screen for that one. One that’s really obvious to me that you could screen for would be the ability to express themselves in writing. That wasn’t important until email came along, but anybody who is at your firm interacting with a client or a vendor or employee, they are going to be expressing themselves in writing. Articulate, and we could go on or maybe 10 or 15 of those things.

Then there are specific characteristics that would be important for particular positions. Risk taking, relationship orientation, presence, that would be for an account person. Attention to detail for a project management person. I don’t know that principals are really making too many big mistakes there. It seems like where they are not paying as much attention, or just going by gut instinct instead of being a little bit more intentional about it would be things like, collaboration. That’s a critical one. If you have a firm where collaboration is important and you have even a really high performer who’s not good at collaborating, that’s a mistake in your hiring process.

There are lots of things and I don’t have a list that I would want to give everybody but I just think it’s worth thinking about what should be on their list.

BLAIR: I think your company values, that’s probably a pretty good place to start. I think there are frameworks out there like Patrick Lencioni’s.

DAVID: You said you had five values at the firm?

BLAIR: Five core values, yes.

DAVID: You have a list of those handy?

BLAIR: I don’t have a list of them handy, but I could try to remember.

DAVID: They’re very important to [crosstalk]

BLAIR: Well, the first one is the pursuit of greatness. It’s not excellence because by greatness, I mean, we strive to be the greatest in the world at what we do and we try to do that as individuals and a team. The second one is empowerment. At the end of the day, we’re in the empowerment business and we want to empower our clients to strive for the same greatness. The third one is, say what you’re thinking, and we’ve done an entire podcast on that.

The fourth one is lead by example. The mechanisms that we teach and the frameworks that we teach on how to sell and how to price, we use those in how we conduct business. We don’t ask our clients to do things that we ourselves don’t do. The fifth one is unique ability. That’s a strategic coach idea that speaks to the goal of having everybody on the team spend 90% or more of their time doing things that they love, that they’re energized by and that they are really good at. There I did it. Five of them off the top of my head after a mini week vacation too.

DAVID: That’s pretty impressive. Those sound a lot more practical to me than some of the ones that I read which strike me as almost like they were ripped off some motivational poster and I don’t know to what degree people are even actually achieving those things. Those are interesting.

BLAIR: Thanks. Anyway, you’ve got to have a list, right? Something that you’re measuring against, whatever that is, whatever’s on the list. Or should be some characteristics that are true for all employees and then some that are specific to particular roles.

BLAIR: We’re talking about Taking the Team Seriously, finally, once and for all. Before the break, we talked a little bit about this idea that you need to have a list of things that you will not compromise on, the attributes of all of the people that work with you and the idea that some of those attributes will be position specific and some will be universal across your firm. Next, let’s get into the subject of essentially lead generation and coming up with a plan to drive inbound inquiries or candidates to you. I really love how you’re making the parallel to new business, because it really is new business done internally.

It’s everything that we do externally. Positioning, lead gen, navigating the sale, pricing, closing. All of those things, you think of that as the arc of the sale when it comes to attracting, landing, retaining clients. We’re talking about all of the same things internally when it comes to adding to your team.

DAVID: I wouldn’t ask you to do this right off the top of your head, but I would love to hear--

BLAIR: The way you asked me to list my five core values?

DAVID: Right. Yes, unfortunately, you came through on that one. [laughs]

BLAIR: I stumbled through it. [laughs]

DAVID: What I would love to have a discussion with you about someday is how to have the value conversation with a prospective employee.


DAVID: Wouldn’t that be great?

BLAIR: Yes, that’s actually an easy one. I’ve had it, and I’ve had candidates turn the value conversation on me.


BLAIR: People who are familiar with our material have put me in the position where it’s like, "What do you want to achieve out of this candidate, about staff in this position?" People are asking me the three-year question which is another question that I’ve got from Dan Sullivan at Strategic Coach and we use it in our sales methodology. I’ve had people put the three-year question to me around hiring the position that they are essentially interviewing for. It’s a really powerful technique. I think you can take probably most of the principles of selling of how to do selling respectfully and effectively and turn it inward into a recruiting process.

DAVID: Well, when I was thinking about this particular episode and thinking about the lead gen, again, if you haven’t caught on yet, we’re talking about your culture being the positioning that’s meant to attract great employees. It’s also meant to spit out bad employees, hiring mistakes, your culture is good at that, it should be. As I was thinking about that, I just went through a list of all my clients that are doing one or more things that I think fit under this rubric of lead generation for new employees.

Some of these ideas are really obvious, but some of them are really new. New to me and they made me smile as I thought about, "Wow. This is an example of how you take lead generation for great employees, for building a great team seriously.

BLAIR: You’ve got a list here. What’s at the top of the list?

DAVID: It’s social media. The reason I have it on here is because I'm constantly asked about whether firm should be participating in the social media and I say, "You should, yes, but not for new business". I think it will have nearly zero impact on your new business efforts, but it will impact your employee attraction business. They will look at this. They'll look at your Facebook page, maybe a little bit of Instagram or Twitter. From time to time, you should do that. It should be driven by the team. It shouldn't be driven by you. They should be authentic, transparent about what's happening.

You shouldn't worry about clients reading it. You should just think about it as what prospective employees will learn about you and hear about you. Social media being someone active and spreading that around, encouraging people to post and so on I think is one element of lead generation that does make sense of attracting good team. It doesn't make sense for attracting great perspective clients though.

BLAIR: This is where you would let the flavor of the firm come through.


BLAIR: I'm not going to use the B word. You're going to refer to it as the brand, but it's the flavor. It's a real inside Snapchat of what really goes on here, who these people really are. Okay, social media presence and what else?

DAVID: Well, depending on your external focus as a firm, this may or may not make sense. If it does make sense, then you want to connect with a local university, local school. If the school regularly puts out students one of whom you might be interested in hiring. If you would be interested in hiring the very top student that comes out of a school and, of course, you want to have a mix of very experienced employees and then every once in a while a new employee.

If a new employee makes sense, and the school near you turns out those people, then build a relationship with that school and with the teacher and say, "Hey I'd like to guest teach". I don't mean the whole class, I just mean one session out of every semester. I've done this many times. I've done it at SVA in New York quite a few times even though I'm not looking for team members, but I really enjoy that process. Just teach and you'll make a connection with some people.

The professor will be very grateful for your help there, and then that will lead to an easy conversation where you say to the professor, "Hey, if you find just an extraordinary student of yours that's looking for work, please let me know. Introduce them to me and if we have an opening we'll be interested". When our kids were younger, I made a point of connecting with every single teacher of every class and I would try if they were open to letting me do it, I would be a guest teacher for one time for every class every year. I really enjoyed it.

My reason for doing it was I felt like if the teacher had a personal relationship with me the parent, they would treat my kid a little bit more respectfully and it would be a better experience for everybody.

I remember one time I was teaching a Spanish class for a high school.

BLAIR: You don't speak Spanish. Just kidding.


DAVID: I did. I showed up. The teacher introduced me and then walked out. I never saw him for an hour and a half. They were grateful. They felt like, "I've got an hour and a half free."

BLAIR: Going to the pub.

DAVID: It's not what I'm looking for, but I have clients doing every one of these ideas. These aren't my ideas. I'm just gathering things that they do. They love it. It keeps them sharp and it connects them with some high level student. They only want that very best student out of 24 in the class. This would be another thing to do.

BLAIR: We're talking about elements of a lead generation plan to drive candidates to you. One is the use of social media. The second one we just talked about is guest teach at a class at a known school that allows you to develop a relationship with the professor or a teacher and you can possibly cherry pick the best students from there. The next on your list is?

DAVID: Offer your place as a meeting facility for a trade or an association meeting. AIGA or the local digital group or Apdev group or whatever, need a place to meet. If your facility is conducive to that and big enough, then offer it. Have refreshments, pay for those and so on, because those are really meat markets. They're really looking to connect with other folks and try to find the next best job.

The best thing that can happen is that they walk your facility, they pick up a sense of the culture by doing that. You may try to have one or two of your existing team members there to show them around, give them a tour, answer questions and you can even have them sign up to be notified if you have an opening. Since these are meat market things and they're looking for where the next step is going to be on their career ladder, this third idea really works easily and costs you nothing essentially to offer your facility as a meeting place for these trade association things.

BLAIR: I've seen these done a few times. I spoke it was either early this year or late last year somewhere with a fairly big room. I don't remember how many people were in the room for the event. Then the local agency principal who took the impetus, to organize the event, he hosted a cocktail event for me afterwards and he invited a fair number of people. There were around 75 people showed up and spent three hours milling about with his team.

His team all had t-shirts on that identified themselves as their team members. He paid for all of the drinks, food for the venue, had some music. It was a fun evening and he didn't communicate this to me explicitly, but it was obvious why he was doing it. It was he wanted people from the local associations of his competitors who are potential hires, future hires possibly to come into this firm and get a sense of the space and the culture of the place. I thought it was brilliant and I don't know what it cost him. Maybe a couple of grand, but it was probably money really well spent.

DAVID: Because if you think of what it's costing them-- If they go to a placement service, they're paying somewhere between 25% and 35% of the first year's compensation. The only guarantee is if the employee doesn't work out, they'll find another loser for you. In the scheme of things, that's really cheap because if it's $100,000 person, then it's costing you 25,000 to 35,000 you're just talking about. That is the perfect example of what I'm talking about right now.

Another idea that's related to that and this obviously is only going to work for a few firms. I have a client in Seattle that does this and another one in North Carolina where when they arranged the facility, when they did the build out, they arranged it so that it was perfect for an art gallery. They featured a rotating artist and it changes every two or three months. Every time the exhibit changes, then there's a big open house with hundreds of people coming there. Obviously, the artist is there. It could be a photographer, an illustrator or a designer, or something like that.

It's a chance to mingle with a lot of great people, some of whom might be candidates to work with you. It's another way to focus your facility. This is one of the many reasons why moving to a co-working space eliminates some of those options. It also eliminates the option of bringing great perspective clients in to tour your facility in a more controlled environment. Anyway, this is the fourth idea and that's just to have an art gallery in your facility.

BLAIR: I think that's a brilliant idea. I can see it also working to open up avenues of conversations with perspective new clients.

DAVID: Yes, for sure.

BLAIR: Next on your list, quarterly webinar. Really? Quarterly webinar for perspective employees.

DAVID: Yes, I never would've thought of this. I have a client doing this in Missouri and they regularly have between 400 and 600 folks.

BLAIR: Shut the front door.

DAVID: Took you a while to figure out how you're going to finish that sentence, didn’t it?


BLAIR: I didn't know there were that many people in Missouri.

DAVID: Well, they're not necessarily in Missouri. The firm is in Missouri, right?


DAVID: They have somebody that these perspective employees would love to hear about. It's somebody about how to find a great job or how to present your portfolio or all those topics. This person, the principals, the one who runs it all the time is getting known and the word is spreading that they know a lot about how to build your career. If you go work for this firm, if you're lucky enough that they choose you to work at this firm, it will be the best thing for your career possible.

That's what you want. You don't somebody who's going to work for you for life. You want somebody to come to you who says, "I'm going to immediately contribute, but my career is going to be so much better off because of the processes I'm going to learn, because of the people I'm going to rub shoulders with, because of the nature of the clients they have, because of how carefully I managed". This webinar that is happening at every quarter is covering some topic and there are guest speakers and so on.

We do webinars, well, not so much, but we used to do webinars for lead generation for clients and we ought to be doing it for perspective employees as well.

BLAIR: All right. Closely related to that is the idea of skill building workshops open to the community.


BLAIR: Tell us a little bit about that.

DAVID: Well, if you have a firm where you have enough people in there so it doesn't really make financial sense to send them off to some seminar. You do seminars, I do seminars. Lot of people did seminars. Sometimes it can be expensive to send somebody to that. You've got the time away from work and the tuition and the expenses and, so on, travel expenses. Well, you can just bring somebody in to your firm and then 5 or 10 people from your staff are sitting there listening and they're not losing as much time and it's saving you quite a bit of money. Why not open that up and it could be on an invitation-only basis or you could even sell spots for that. Open it up so that other folks in the community, you could even network with your peers and share expenses and so on.

Essentially, this is another way to get prospective employees into your facility and to rub shoulders with your people and to do it in a setting where they are learning, where their careers are furthered. Some skill-building workshop, it's probably going to be a half a day or a day at the most or it could just be a learning lunch.

BLAIR: If you're thinking of bringing David C. Baker in to do some account management training for your team, why not open the doors to your competitors, check with Mr. Baker to see if the other firms in the market also have some account people who want to be trained and then you get to spend a day or two with them and see which ones jump out at you.


BLAIR: Sounds devious.

DAVID: Although I've heard he's not that good and he's pretty expensive [crosstalk] find somebody else.

BLAIR: All right. We have time for a couple more quickly. What's next on the list of lead generation ideas for candidates?

DAVID: Well, sometimes people use contractors when they have overflow requirements. That's an obviously good reason to do it, but maybe you need to build your staff in a way that you always use contractors so that you are working with them. There is nothing like working with somebody on a project to give you a deeper, more authentic sense of whether that's somebody that you would want to hire as well so that's a quick way to test them out.

Another one that, this is maybe my favorite one because it requires being an adult here. I'm not talking about viewing any employee who leaves as somebody who's suddenly graduated. That just seems a little crazy to me. That seems a little false. When somebody does leave, as long as they're somebody who's left on good terms and they were a valued employee, keep that relationship really strong with them.

Stay in touch with them and be intentionally open to the idea of them coming back. Because when I see a good employee who leave for whatever reason, it was not under bad circumstances, but for whatever reason, it could even be an oculus, like a significant other moved across the country and they had to go with them or something. When they come back, they are an even better employee. One of the best things that can happen is for your great employees to go somewhere else and then come back to you. Just build that into the process all along and do what you can to stay in touch with them.

BLAIR: I've seen that many times too. That attitude of a good person leaves, they're now dead to me, that is not helpful. Because as you point out, when those good people do come back, they tend to be even more valuable and they tend to stay longer too, don't they?

DAVID: Yes, and they're more appreciative. They realize, this was really better than I thought it was.

BLAIR: It's hell out there.

DAVID: This is really great. What I was wanting.

BLAIR: We've been talking about taking the team seriously. I think this follows nicely on a podcast we did recently on hiring mistakes and we're planning to do an episode in the not too distant future about vetting candidates. The key points we hit here are when you say taking it seriously, you mean it's one of the most important things that you, the principal do is all of the HR aspects, team management, culture, et cetera, right up there with financial management.

You should have a list of attributes for your candidates or your people that you just absolutely will not compromise on. Then you should put the same lead generation "plan and efforts together" to recruit and hire the best candidates as you do the best clients. We've talked about a bunch of different suggestions here on how to do that. This has been really interesting. I feel like we're in the middle of this fairly long people run.

DAVID: We are. I was just thinking the same thing. Isn't that interesting? We got such great feedback on the six big mistakes. I've heard from a lot of people that were just laughing. They almost had to pull over on the side of the road. That was a fun one.

BLAIR: [laughs] I've heard from people who corrected some mistakes after that episode.

DAVID: Really? [laughs]

BLAIR: Hopefully, there were the same people laughing. They were probably crying.

DAVID: Right.

BLAIR: All right, David, this has been great. Thank you. We'll talk to you in two weeks time.

DAVID: All right, thanks, Blair.

David Baker