Secrets Behind the Killer Website

In a follow-up to the popular “Secrets Behind the Killer Proposal” episode, David unloads everything firms can do to make sure their website is locked and loaded for winning over new clients (wink wink).

Transcript

Blair Enns: David, one of our highest performing episodes was the excellent episode on secrets of the killer proposal, remember that one?

David C. Baker: Yes, lots of fantastic chatter back and forth to a little bit of confusion, people would step in and clear the air and help people understand what we were talking about.

Blair: Afterwards on social media, yes, it was fantastic.

David: Yes, exactly.

Blair: Similar vein, I think we talked about it in that episode, or maybe a subsequent episode, secrets of the killer website. We're giving away all the good stuff here.

David: Pretty soon, we're going to be working at Starbucks or something-

Blair: Yes, would you like fries with that?

David: -or Tim Hortons your inferior version. [chuckles]

Blair: Yes. Hey, thanks for the Canadian reference. Why are we covering secrets of the killer website? Most of the listeners here a lot of them are in the website business, they all have websites. They all work in some ways or have offered guidance on a website, surely they know what they're doing.

David: You'd think they would. I'm disheartened because if you'd fly away up high and looked down on my business, maybe a third of it is M&A work, maybe a third to a half. Then the rest of it is split broadly between two consulting packages. One is new business audit, and the other is the total business reset. Both of them include all kinds of deep work on positioning, which I absolutely love to do.

That stuff is like, if you get your positioning right, that's like wetting your pants in a dark suit. You get a warm feeling, but nobody notices. Unless your website represents your positioning, then it's just wasted effort. That's what's disappointing to me because when I go back three months later and I look at a client's website and I think, "Wait a second, this just doesn't pay it out. It's wasted effort." It's not anger, it's just frustration that it feels like great positioning decisions that a lot of people are making, it's just not showing up in a website that works for them.

Blair: I'm sorry, I was just writing down wetting pants in a dark suit onto the David Baker metaphor list.

David: That's from my dad.

Blair: It's not anger, it's just-- Okay, it's a little bit of anger.

David: Little.

Blair: All right, we're going to get into this. You have all these different variables, you are about to give advice to people in the website business, some of whom are in the website business, on what they should be doing better on their website.

David: Seems a little pretencious. [chuckles]

Blair: Remember, these are secrets, secrets of the killer website.

David: Yes, right.

Blair: Let's start with platform, what are we building this thing on? Surely, your advice is to go get a standard CMS, something like WordPress, right?

David: If you didn't think too much about it, that'd probably be your decision. After all, if you're not a WordPress expert, there's lots of people out there that can do it, probably even in your neighborhood, down the street maybe, some kid that goes to school with your kid or something like that. I can see that making sense in some cases, but choosing a platform for your website is not just about your website, it's about the platform that you want to develop in for many, many years.

If you do your website in WordPress, which on the surface makes sense, all of a sudden, you're committed to that platform. If you're already doing websites for people or you're going to do them in the future, you're going to need to do them in your website because what kind of message do you send if you tell a client, "Listen, we built ours in Drupal or Ruby on Rails or Joomla or something like that, but now you should do it in WordPress?" That's not going to make sense to them.

The whole point is, you really need to choose a website platform that's also the one that you want to develop in. Point number two is it should be a platform that hardly anybody else uses because--

Blair: Yes, I'm going to die on the Flash hill, I'm just saying.

David: Oh, seriously. That's the great thing about Flash is it's really hard. If you choose that as a platform, then there's a really powerful advantage. For one thing, the load speed is fantastically slow, so people have to look at it.

Blair: Yes, slows it down nicely, doesn't it?

David: Right, they're staring right at it. It's like a captive audience.

Blair: It's like selling gum in an airport.

David: If you want to increase the average visit time on your site, Flash is absolutely the best way to do that because just by definition, they have to stay there while the thing loads.

Blair: Most of our listeners, they're not sophisticated enough to make a decision like choosing Flash. If it's not Flash, if you don't want to go full creative with Flash, what are some more obscure platforms that you recommend they build their site on?

David: Well, cobalt, which isn't really a CMS, but it's a programming language. That would be too old, I think. I think it's hard to find people that know that.

Blair: I took that in high school.

David: I didn't know you went to high school. This is news for me. Drupal.

Blair: Yes.

David: Ruby.

Blair: Got to love Joomla.

David: Joomla, nothing simpler than that. Squarespace would be a terrible choice because anybody can do it.

Blair: Just flipping it around one of your first points here is you build the site on the platform that you want to build in. A client comes to you and says, "Hey, I need a new website." You say, "We're going to build on WordPress." Their answer is, "Everyone is going to build on WordPress." If you say, "We're going to build it in Joomla." They say, "I thought Joomla was dead. They just haven't buried the body." You're like, "No, that's what you think. Joomla is where all the freaky cool shit happens."

David: Right. Even Craft would be another option. Craft is basically WordPress for pretty people but not many people program in Craft. That would even be a better choice than WordPress. Anyway, I think people get the idea.

Blair: You're saying it should be a really obscure platform?

David: Very obscure platform, yes.

Blair: What about a Black Box CMS?

David: Oh, that would be even better. Not one that you bought from somebody else but one that you develop.

Blair: You built.

David: There's even a fuse that are still around that or built around the FileMaker framework and it serves up webpages still. There's a plugin for that. That's a very excellent choice as well.

Blair: I love going old school. Everybody's zigzy zag. Platforms, the first secret to the killer website, choose an obscure platform. You mentioned loading speed already. It's the next thing on your list. You want to just hit the high point there about people think you want your site to load fast. They're idiots. You don't want your site to load fast. Explain why?

David: You don't want it to load super fast. You don't want it to load super slow. You're really looking for that sweet spot.

Blair: Unless it's Flash because it's worth it. Because once it's loaded, it's totally worth the weight. Go on.

David: I just don't want to see people spend a lot of money or think too carefully about it. I know Google, their search engine talks a little bit about penalizing sites that load slowly, also, sites that aren't secure.

Blair: Don't listen to Google.

David: [chuckles]. Sometimes you have to. Unless they're a client, then you have to listen to Google. In this case, all I'm saying is don't worry about the load speed. You don't want to optimize images because what if somebody's loading your site in their young teenage boy's bedroom, and they have a 55-inch widescreen in there? They can see the images at full resolution. The last thing you want is to see those things so optimized that they're grainy. Anyway, don't worry about loads. That's basically that we don't have to talk too much about that.

Blair: Then next, you've got humanization. It's important to humanize your website. I want to ask if dogization is a word. Let's talk about humanizing first.

David: One of the things I've noticed is that users of websites want to have a picture of somebody. Ideally, that's going to be somebody that actually works at the firm. The question always comes up, "Do we picture everybody? What if we only have four people?" Or, "What if we have 80 People? What if we're trying to project an image that we're at least a 25-person firm, and we only have four people here?"

Those are tough questions that you have to think about. You can't just make a rash decision around those. Let's use an example. Let's say you want to be a 25-person firm, but you're still four people. You're serious four people. These are not losers at all. What you could do is you could just name everybody a leader of something, director of something. You would just say, "Meet some of our leaders." Or, "Meet our leaders." Then you're not saying you have a lot of other people but I think that's the implication. They're going to figure that out. What I don't want to see is, I don't want you to have nobody on the website. Show some people but think about how you can look bigger than you really are.

Blair: Isn't that what stock photos is for? If you just show-

David: Oh, like a big office?

Blair: Yes, big office with a big boardroom and everybody smile. You got every ethnicity represented. You've got all four genders. Everybody's smiling. There's a sales chart that goes up there or goes up off the chart. You can get those photos for free. You don't even worry about the watermark on it, because people just see right through those things. I think as a general photo, you could use that. Would you use stock photos for the actual people who don't exist or is that an ethical dilemma?

David: If that doesn't cross a line, it gets pretty close to it. If you're going to do that, you need folks that are not easily recognizable.

Blair: This does affect your hiring practices?

David: Well, that's true, I guess, because you could have the same person dress up in different ways to make it look like a bigger group too. I'd never really thought about that. That's something I need to think about some more before I recommend it.

Blair: Back to my question about dogization. We've talked about this before. It's pretty important that you show some of the dogs in the firm. Have you allowed for that?

David: Only the dogs that haven't bit people. That's the limit you'd follow there. The dogs that get along. There's no such thing as a dog that weighs less than 20 pounds.

Blair: Says the guy with 175-pound great dane.

David: [laughs] If you've got one of those yappy things that's really an overgrown cat, it's not a good idea to pretend that's a dog.

Blair: We are rapidly alienating our audience here.

David: Okay, sorry about that. What's next here?

Blair: Place, am I reading this right?

David: Yes, place. Humanized about people placed is, this is the other thing. When somebody's reading your website, they want to have a pen and a map in their head, they want to know where you are. Partly, it's like, "Oh, I wonder what time it is where you are," timezone. There's four time zones in the US. Where are you? There's 32 Time Zones in Russia, I think. Where are you right now? Now, here's where you can get very, very creative. Most people don't have a real expensive office anymore. Everybody's moved home. They're working from home.

Blair: Working from their parent's basement.

David: This is your opportunity to expand your footprint geographic.

Blair: Oh, yes. You now have 18 offices.

David: Yes, it's not just the number, it's where they are too, so LA, New York, London, Sydney, or Melbourne? Which would it be Sydney or Melbourne?

Blair: Yes, sure. Either one. Okay. Depends, is it the food or the coffee.

David: This is where there's really no great benefit in being humble at this point. Now it can get a little sticky if somebody says, "Oh, wow. We have an office in San Diego, too. Could we meet at your San Diego office," and now all of a sudden, it gets a little awkward because whoever's there is going to have to start the automated vacuum and run it every day instead of every month. If there's still a week work that exists or a week crashed, or whatever those things are called, if there's one of those in your town, you could just rent that and hang pictures up and it'll look probably close enough.

Blair: Yes. Okay. It is an opportunity to use your website to demonstrate your geographic reach and where your people are, you have an office there. I would say that goes for contractors too. We went to somebody in Tokyo. Or-

David: Oh, that's true.

Blair: -Okay, I had a guy who used to edit videos for me. He lived in Paris, and then he moved to Kyoto. I should be putting Paris and Kyoto on the distribution part of our website work on the Contact Us.

David: Yes.

Blair: Hey, we got offices in Paris and Kyoto.

David: You don't have to pay for long-distance calls anymore, I think all plans to include it. It's not like it's going to hurt the client.

Blair: Yes. All right, what's next on this list of secrets of the killer website?

David: Well, one of the reasons that prospects go to your site is to just figure out how and what you think inside or what we would call content if it's not very good, insight if it's really good. This is your opportunity to shine. I do think you ought to write this yourself but I wouldn't necessarily have super high expectations. You should write things like a dozen things to look for when hiring a firm, or how best to work with your design firm, or why we don't have account managers.

Blair: Oh, so you make your insight all about you. Or reasons where the conclusion of the insight is these people would be idiots not to hire you. I get it. That's brilliant.

David: It's this stuff that hardly anybody else can write.

Blair: Yes.

David: Especially if you write it first.

Blair: Who else is going to think of this.

David: Right. One of my favorite ideas is the whole, have you seen these where you have a quiz and it might just be five questions or 10 questions?

Blair: I love those.

David: The idea is, yes, answer these questions, and we will give you an honest perspective about whether we're a fit. The cool thing is that it almost ends up always yielding an answer like yes, we're a fit.

Blair: Yes.

David: I like how you just lead people right to the gate, and they have no choice. There's such a crowd behind them. They can't step aside. They just have to crawl right through that gate and bam, they're a client. I don't know what you call that thing, a brand health quiz, or I don't know.

Blair: Yes, they took the quiz and the answer was, "No, you need to hire us now." They'd be idiots not to hire you. It's genius.

David: Yes.

Blair: Next on the list, authority. Authority cues everywhere, right? reasons why you should hire us. Best-selling author.

David: Don't you have an Amazon best-selling book?

Blair: I do.

David: You want to say more about that? Or is that something that everybody has?

Blair: Well, I know authors of best-selling books that have sold less than 1000 copies.

David: How'd they get the title? How'd they get that best-selling thing?

Blair: Well, you gamed the system, right? You've put it for sale in an obscure category.

David: Oh.

Blair: There are other things you can do to drive sales. It only has to be there at any point in time. I think it's hourly or it's four times a day they do this.

David: Okay, that explains why there's so many of them.

Blair: yes. Your crappy book that nobody bought. If you are intelligent about it, you can become an Amazon Best Seller for a few hours. Then once you have that, man, you're a best-selling book and you don't want too much emphasis put on Amazon. You can just say best-selling book, your local bookstore. You go in you get them to carry it and then you go in and buy all 10 copies, and then it's a best-selling book and you don't have to name who said it was the best seller, where it was the best seller?

David: Well, that fits this authority topic in my mind. First of all, I think it's really important that you say award-winning, and if you can go further and actually, list the awards you've won. That's like unassailable.

Blair: Yes, is that really necessary, though?

David: Well, if you don't have them, it's not necessary, but I don't know how it would hurt you. The point is, you need to spend the time and money entering award shows where either there's not that many entrants or the standards aren't super high, and you're fairly like local at ease are perfect because that's not really about the quality of your work. That's about how much the community loves you, and how many people haven't left you or employment, they stay there, for whatever-- It may not be a great reason.

I can't remember where maybe it was ad week or ad age, I don't remember. There was some article recently that said that people in procurement are regularly reading the local award shows results, and it impresses them. They will send a list of local ad year award winners, to the marketing and product departments and so on and say, "Listen, if you may already have somebody you want to work with, but this would be a good place to start." Third place doesn't count, but first and second place.

Blair: Yes, those procurement people, they're always doing such great work. I love that they're scanning the local awards shows and sending the list of winners to marketing. The standard authority cues, you got to bang out a book and call it a best seller, and if you can't make it a best-seller, you're just not trying hard enough, number one. Number two, you have to say award-winning, and for both of these, you don't have to list but there's also fastest-growing, you should be in the inc 5000 fastest growing companies category.

David: Is it 5000?

Blair: Yes, it's a little more liberal now it's easier to get in it.

David: I've heard it's going to be 50,000 at some point, but I don't know.

Blair: We're all in, yes, so long as you're not shrinking, you're an award-winning fastest growing firm.

David: If you have no shrinkage issues, you can be an inc 5000, 50,000 winner.

Blair: No website is complete without a CTA, a call to action. What are your thoughts on call to actions?

David: Well, I think we're missing the boat here. Everything could be pretty darn good on our website, but I just don't understand how people think here. There is no room for somebody coming to a website and spending any time without responding to at least one maybe two calls to action. There's lots of ways to do this, you could have a really intriguing offer, or you could have, "Hey, do you need a proposal right now?" Ask them three questions, and then have some automated PDF creator that just gets them a proposal right there, or you could put all the content, just data, everything.

You do not want prospects to just, in a relaxed way, read your "insight," and then move on because that's just a waste of traffic. Call to action, like what are we trying to accomplish here? We want their money right now, or we want them to do something or we want them to schedule a call, absolutely. Even if they're not qualified, we want to spend the time talking to them, so calls to action ought to be everywhere.

Blair: I love the idea of the automatic proposal generator, like why hasn't somebody done this? I'm looking for a new marketing firm. It's late at night, I've got my glass of Malbec, I stumbled upon your website. It's like, oh, my God, this is the firm for me. Look, they're award-winning.

David: Offices everywhere.

Blair: This guy's written a best-selling book. Then it's like, "Hey, tell us about your problem, and we'll submit a proposal right now." I just type in l need new website, blah, blah, blah, and bang, there's a proposal spit out. I'm surprised nobody's doing this yet.

David: Imagine it was time that saves.

Blair: A ton of time, and then you could just click to pay the $5,000 deposit.

David: Exactly.

Blair: This is genius. Okay, call to action, what's next?

David: Yes, and then next is a drip campaign. I mean, this has to be together because what are you going to do with the information you gather during the CTA process, and obviously, you're going to do something with it or you wouldn't collect it in the first place. Anybody that completes any call to action and just assume permission here, they should automatically be dropped into a fairly aggressive drip campaign.

Research is a little bit all over the place here, but my suggestion is a pretty lengthy, forceful email about every two days probably. You have to be prepared for people unsubscribing it and you have to allow for that legally, but you don't have to process the request very quickly. In fact, you could even just say, please allow 10 days for your request to be processed.

Blair: That's five more emails.

David: Exactly. That's why you do it every two days.

Blair: Yes. That's brilliant. I can imagine what's in the drip emails, like the first one would be a coupon, like 20% off if you buy now.

David: If you've gotten that automatic proposal, 20% would make sense, right?

Blair: Right. Yes, just keep discounting the price. You just build the extra 20%, and then maybe like a free diagnostic of free assessment. You just keep layering on the offers, at some point, they'd be silly not to reply and take advantage of all these offers. You'll make up the money later.

David: Most of the time.

Blair: Get the foot in the door. Great. CTA with the drip campaign, you've got news section on here. I'm a little surprised to hear that. What kind of news we're talking about?

David: Well, I've also talked about insight or content, so you don't want just news, but oh, it's news about the firm.

Blair: The firm, right. Yes.

David: Yes. I don't mean like an alternate CNN or something that takes all CNN's left-leaning stuff and turns it right or you take Fox. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about news of the firm, the kind of stuff that-- This isn't going to interest everybody, but anybody that goes to your site is bound to be very interested in things like any promotions or any remodeling that you've done or anything you've done for one of their competitors that has really kicked ass and made that competitor a lot of money. Of course, you want to be very specific about that.

Blair: Your production manager just had a baby.

David: Yes. Right. Which if they're already a client, this will explain why they haven't been getting the answers they're looking for, that kind of thing. Or maybe there's a shift in how clients are reviewing your overall services. You might explain that in here, but really, what you're looking for is a constant steady stream of "news". It doesn't matter how relevant it is. What really matters is how often you do it. Then every one of these entries needs to be dated and it can look a little weird if you're really regular about this and then the last piece of news was three years ago, but don't worry about that.

There's something called an archive. I don't know if you've heard of this, an internet archive, where there's a hundred websites a day that they'll go back and they'll mirror and the chances are that they might have picked yours up and they'll see that you strip the date out. That's not worth the risk, but maybe weekly's too much, maybe monthly, but it could just be a press release that one of your interns are great at writing these things, just post them up there in a news section.

Blair: What I'm hearing you say is you treat the news section like you would any other content or inside. It's like you got to post regularly. If you're out of news, hire somebody, fire somebody, ask somebody to have a baby or say somebody's having a baby, just make the news.

David: I'd be careful about that last one. Well, that point is good for sure.

Blair: Okay. I didn't get that, but let's keep going.

David: Okay.

Blair: Client criteria, next on the list.

David: Client criteria. This one I don't think will be too hard to understand. There's only, oh, I don't know, probably a dozen firms that are specific about the kinds of clients are looking for within this range and in this industry. Maybe you've used somebody before and access to the decision-maker and all that kind of nonsense but the truth is that very, very few firms are doing that. If I have a choice in your shoes between being very specific about my client criteria and not, I'm going to go the not route because I do not want to be hemmed in.

If I've decided that I want a new client, maybe we don't have enough work to do, or maybe we want to explore something new, some new opportunity or whatever, the last thing I want is to be held back by some description of the ideal client. I don't want to put it up and take it down, put it up and take it down. I want my website to be very static. I do not want it to be changing very often. This is important. If you want flexibility, if you don't want to have to stick to the same principles all the time and finding clients, then by God, don't put those on your website. Be very, almost eager, maybe not begging, but kind of eager and open and warm and that kind of thing.

Blair: Well, cast that net wide is what you're saying?

David: Yes. Right.

Blair: I think the highest expression of that is when you're talking about your audience, your client, instead of putting any parameters around who you work for, just say you, we help you to achieve results.

David: Whoever you are.

Blair: Yes. If I'm reading it's like, oh, you help me so I'm in your client target market. You're relevant to me. That's a bit of a hack. We help you to achieve results and solutions is another good. We help you get solutions.

David: We sell you solutions, our solutions help you get the results that you want.

Blair: They keep breeding the word you as like, they can't help, but get a warm feeling.

David: Hey, on this next one, can I flip this around? This is something I haven't really studied much, but I know you've read a lot about this, keyword stuffing. What is that about?

Blair: Well, Keyword stuffing, Google kind of shut that down a while ago where you're just in the meta description and tags, I think it's called meta. Maybe in there. They're called Facebook tags.

David: No, I think that's Facebook.

Blair: Where you just put all the words where people might search for but now, look, so I see some firms who, like do this really narrow positioning of it. We just solve these types of problems where these types of clients, and then they get very little traffic, but they do the smart thing of if you look at the page title so if you hover over on the tab, and the page title shows up, it says, even if somebody's making a narrow claim of expertise, it says like ad agency near me, or full-service marketing communication firm, Denver. The keyword that people might be searching for, don't worry that it doesn't match up with whatever more narrow claim that you're making on the website.

David: Oh, wow. There's lots of them stuffed in there.

Blair: Well, the title can only be so long, but you just get it in. Whatever you think people are searching for like more generalist firm. I really love ad agency near me and then put your phone number in the page. Settle two. That's a good one.

David: There's a firm out there, is a dental firm. I read about that. The name of the firm is Dentist Near Me.

Blair: That's brilliant.

David: When you go to Google and you search for a Dentist Near Me, bam, it's always that firm, how smart is that?

Blair: Next on our list of secrets of the killer website is contact options. You want to list tons, right? The more ways to get in touch the better.

David: Why would you have all these CTAs if you also wouldn't have contact options? Because what you're really hoping is they skip right past the normal CTA that just moves them down the funnel and they dive right down into the VAD of oil and hire you? This is where you want to list every possible way because you never know exactly how they want to do it. There probably should be a direct link to your calendar. There should be your phone number, all the direct phone numbers.

Blair: Book some time with me via the Calendly link. That's exactly right. Your mobile number. I don't know about probably not your home number, but definitely your office and all the direct in or dial numbers.

David: Would you put the fax number in there?

Blair: Absolutely. Because we're looking to be differentiated and most people don't have their fax numbers. I'm still holding on for faxes to basically come back now that they've become digital. Look, I faxed you the other day. You and I faxed back and forth all the time.

David: Yes, why wouldn't you have that? Facts for sure. I think probably some sort of an automated popup, probably not ignorable. It should be right in the middle of the screen. You've got to click through it or share screen freezes and that's going to give them a chance to ask, like, can I help?

Blair: Oh, the chatbot.

David: Right, exactly. It doesn't have to be a man by a real person, but answers basic questions and could even take appointments and maybe dials you through your Google voice number and tries to find you and just ask them to wait and then connects you directly. There's lots of ways to-- The whole point is make it easy to contact you. That's the point.

Blair: Chatbots, phone numbers, fax numbers.

David: Yes.

Blair: Love it. Okay. We're getting near to the bottom of the list of secrets of the killer website so we just covered contact options. Oh, mission, purpose values. This is so important to the clients who are going to hire you.

David: It is I didn't think so at first, but now that I've done more thinking and interviewing clients, it really does move them and I thought this before I did some research that they were coming to you mainly for the work that you do like the stuff you went to school for or didn't as a case may be. Really, if their mission values purpose, if that doesn't align with yours, you're probably not going to get the work.

Here you need to be not so specific that you use a word that doesn't resonate with them, but you need to be very warm and inviting and talk about the things that everybody agrees with like poverty, and climate change politics. You gotta be a little careful about that.

Blair: I just worry all that's a little too specific. I would just say like doing good or doing good work for good people because everybody's going to look at that and go. I want to do good too. We only work for good people who do good work.

David: Do you have to be a certified B Corp?

Blair: I don't know. Why stop at B maybe B plus Corp. If it doesn't exist, we could invent that, license it to people. Hey, we're a B plus corporation. That's what marketing people do. Just invent shit all the time. Or be friendly.

David: If especially is about community building.

Blair: No, I meant the animals - things that buzz.

David: Oh, that kind of being.

Blair: Because they're endangered. Talk about climate change. We're a B-friendly court.

David: [chuckles] That would sneak up on them, wouldn't it?

Blair: We're going to do that on our website. That's genius. Sometimes that just amaze me. Anything else you want to say on mission, purpose, and values? Because, as you pointed out, they don't align with the clients.

David: There's lots to say there, but that's got to come from your heart.

Blair: All right. You got the last point here on time from start to finish. How much time do you think people should spend on this site?

David: Longer than they think, that's the short of it or the long of it I guess I should say because the danger in getting this thing up too quickly is that it does not adequately represent what everybody at the firm thinks. However long that takes, it's more important that every single person has a voice in the creative, the language, all of the tabs and everything, the landing pages.

Blair: Oh, you're talking about the time to develop the site.

David: Yes, exactly.

Blair: Got you. Don't rush this is your point because you want to make sure everybody in the firm has a say in what's on the website.

David: That is more important than how effective it is externally. If that takes a year and a third or whatever, as long as it needs to stay on your list of projects, in fact, at some point, it probably like if you sort this list by date of inception, eventually, your own website is going to sort to the top. That is not a bad thing. That's a sign that you are carefully getting every and people are going to leave during that time too.

You'll have new employees coming along and it's just as important. Don't beat yourself up about this. That's why, because it takes so long if it's done well, especially if you're doing it in Flash, that's why you need to start it right away. Anyway, I've just completely emptied my head of everything I know about an effective website for a firm. I hope that's helpful.

Blair: Well, it makes me think we need to redo our website. We're doing some of these things.

David: There's a lot in here.

Blair: There's a lot here. I'm just kicking myself. We don't have our fax number on the website, but I'll have that fixed by the time we go live with this. David, this has been just brilliant.

David: Oh, thanks. Great questions too. Appreciate the chance to work with you.

Blair: Well, I appreciate that I'm a good questioner. All right. David, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks.

David: All right. Bye, Blair.