Be the Client You Want to See in the World

David admits to making a mistake, as Blair finishes his discussion from a couple episodes back on the eighth pricing model, which he claims “is the highest expression of entrepreneurship there is.”


2Bobs episode 61 - “Different Pricing Models”

Prohibition Gin and Toolbox Design

Cup & Leaf

“Unbundling the Corporation” by John Hagel III and Marc Singer for the Harvard Business Review

The Futur and Chris Do of Blind™

Conscious Minds


DAVID C. BAKER: All right, dear listeners, Blair, have you to stay out of this just for a minute.

BLAIR ENNS: I already hate this.

DAVID: I know. Just wait until they hear it. Dear listeners, this is what happens when I let Blair come up with a topic on his own and I have not had a chance to vet it. So just fair warning.

DAVID: This actually came about because of a mistake I made. Apparently I can't count to eight or something, but we were doing this podcast pretty recently on different pricing models, and so if you haven't heard that one you probably want to listen to that one first, and I kept miscounting how many there were and we left one out and then we kind of ran out of time because you were just going on and on about something. So this is the eighth one in that list, and we're calling this be the client you want to see in the world.


DAVID: That sounds like such a Hallmark card. I'm barfing when I say it. What does this mean?

BLAIR: If we could poll our listeners, I think they would agree that the episodes that I title are titled far better, more appropriate, more creatively.

DAVID: I'm going to give you that.

BLAIR: So you know the line be the change you want to see in the world?

DAVID: I know the line and hate it, but yes, I know the line, right.

BLAIR: Oh, come on. It's a great bumper sticker.

DAVID: Yeah, right.

BLAIR: We're simply applying that thinking to the client, be the client. Agencies bitch about their clients all the time. That sounded more disparaging than I meant it to sound, but we've all been there. You know, we've been on the agency side where we're complaining about the client and I often think, "Well, if you want a better client, why don't you be the client?" In fact, this idea of be the client, you can think of it as the eighth pricing model, really hit me years ago when I was in Manhattan and I was having dinner with a friend of a friend, a guy I knew of it and had never met before, so our mutual friend set up dinner. I'm explaining my business to him. And back then, Win Without Pitching was a consulting company. And he's looking at me with this furrowed brow.

DAVID: Never a good start at dinner.

BLAIR: And I said, "What?" And he said to me, "Why do you keep adding value to other people's businesses?" I was just really struck by that question. This is a guy who about 60 to 90 days ago, sold his business, a business that he hadn't even started back when he asked me the question, sold his business, I think it was for $560 million.


BLAIR: So you think of the money you make running an agency, and you can make a good living, the equivalent of a good salary and more, and you might even make millions of dollars over a lengthy career if you run a successful firm. And you might grow it really big and you might exit. I mean those days are, they're not over, but they're pretty rare, where you would exit for eight, nine figures. But when you think of the value that you often add to your client's business and you think of the spot that you occupy in the value chain, how much value you help to create ultimately and how much you get paid. Sometimes the absolute best way to capture most of the value in the value chain is not to be selling your services, but to take your services and create a product or a platform or something else and become the client.

BLAIR: And it kind of begs the question, if you're a branding agency or an ad agency and you're working with clients who have, you know, products that are fairly simple to acquire and have very little tangible product differentiation, like I would think of coffee as an example or maybe vodka. If you're really good at what you do, if you've got these strong principles around branding or advertising and you think you're good at it, why wouldn't you launch your own product?

DAVID: Yeah, well, most of the clients though that our listeners are working with, they're helping these clients with the marketing or the digitization or something. They're not in the same business that those clients are. At what points do... They're a Venn diagram where they suggest something to the client that they can actually do? You're not suggesting that that's true in most cases. Just true in some cases. And when does that happen and when does it not happen? For instance, if they're working with a foundry and they come up with some idea for the foundry, they're not going to be able to pull off some of those ideas. Which ones are you thinking of it? Are they mainly new ideas? Not so much. Just little incremental changes to the way this company is doing business?

BLAIR: Well, yeah, these are great questions. So the larger question is, well, should you kind of change your business model and be in the business of starting other businesses, and that requires a dilution of focus. I'm just saying if you stay open minded, every once in awhile an opportunity comes along, you come up with an idea and you crush that idea by trying to squeeze it into the fee for service business model box. I'll give you an example.

BLAIR: Years ago, I did an event in Vancouver, a workshop. You actually crashed it, I don't know if you remember like near the end of the day you happened to be in Vancouver and you came in in somewhat of a disguise taking photographs and everybody's thinking, "What the hell is going on here?" And even I didn't recognize it was you. Alternative revenue models was the topic. So there's about 25 people in the room and we're doing this fast track strategy exercise, which is I just simply say, "In five minutes on a blank sheet of paper, write down all of the obvious business opportunities that you see out there in the world. So forget about the fact that you run an agency. What are the opportunities in the marketplace that you see? Where's the white space?"

BLAIR: So people take five minutes and it's a constraint driven exercise, that's not really enough time. So you write down a bunch of stuff really quickly and then we go around the room and talk about what opportunities people have identified. And by far the most compelling business opportunity that somebody identified was, and this is years ago, and I think she hasn't acted on it, so I'm free to talk about some detail now I think. There's a woman who is married, no kids, and she was wearing a tee shirt, something about dogs and she was one of these, what do they call them? A dink is double income, no kids. But there's an equivalent to that phrase for dog owners. No kids. But dogs. So she's in that segment.

BLAIR: Her dogs are like her children for her. And she comes up with this business idea. She just identifies that market. She said, "This is a massive market. People like me who don't have kids but who have pets, who are willing to spend a lot of money on them." And so she mentioned the idea and people started to get excited. We started to brainstorm on business ideas and there were some incredible products and services. So just think of somebody came up with a great name, Dogma and somebody came up with a tagline, they're not children, they're better. And we're coming up with t-shirt ideas and posters and then services and all kinds of different things. And as the room is getting super excited riffing on this idea, on behalf of this woman, the woman who put the idea forward is sitting there with this disturbed look on her face.

BLAIR: She's very uncomfortable with the conversation that's going on around her. I knew what the problem was. I've seen this before. I asked her, I said, "This isn't working for you, why not?" And the rest of us were getting so excited about this idea. We think this is a billion opportunity. She said, "Well, I want to own a design firm." And the entrepreneur in me thought this is crazy.

DAVID: Set your sights higher.

BLAIR: Design firms are difficult businesses, and I understood what she meant. She's a designer. She feels like she was put on this earth to design and she launched a business and made her calling her enterprise as I like to say. A big part of her identity was the fact that she designed for a living. I don't want to make a judgment call here because it's her life, it's her business, it's her career, it's her call to make. But it was so important for her that she's so identified as somebody who is a graphic designer who got paid by others to add value to other people's value chains and took her hourly rate. I'm being a little bit disparaging here, but she just identified as, "This is who I am. This is my place in the value chain."

BLAIR: If you were thinking more entrepreneurial about the business opportunity, to her the best client would be somebody who would take this idea, who would take the risk and who would run with it, and then she would design products and identities and communications around the idea. But if you have the idea, why wait for the client? Why don't you become the client that you want to see in the world? And this concept was really driven home to me, somewhere, this is all like 10 to 15 years ago now. I was doing another workshop in Chicago, and there was a guy who was the business development guy for a firm I'd never heard of. Throughout the workshop, it was a couple of days. He kept trying to impress on me and everybody else in the room how successful this firm was that he worked for. I was a little bit annoyed at what he was trying to do and I was kind of dismissive and saying, "That's nice. I'm sure it's very successful."

BLAIR: And at the break he came up to me and he said, "You don't understand, the owners of this firm, they've made hundreds of millions of dollars." And so I stopped and I said, "It must be industrial design." He said, "Yeah, it's industrial design," and I said, "You retain the IP or take a percentage of sales." He said, "Sometimes." He said, "Sometimes we don't even wait for the client. We conceive of a good idea. We design it, we patent it. We might even go into prototyping and then we find a client and we sell it to the client."

DAVID: Yeah.

BLAIR: I'd done a webcast where I talked about and showed some of the examples where see this toothbrush, they made $80 million from this. See this product? They made x million from this. The point I want to make is, we've talked about this before, this idea that the first level of success, you're kind of pursuing efficiencies. You're trying to do what you do faster and with less waste. But at the other end of that spectrum of efficiency is the idea of innovation. As your firm moves from an efficient firm to an innovative firm, it can't help but get more entrepreneurial.

BLAIR: So this eighth pricing model of be the client, I think it's the highest expression of entrepreneurship that there is. I always say, as you master the value conversation and you become good at value based pricing, it will stress the boundaries of your business model. You will start to think more creatively about the different ways that you could add value to your client. And the highest, most ultimate expression of that, once you get to this place where you're thinking very creatively, you're thinking quite entrepreneurial, and by that I mean in the value based pricing engagements, you're taking some risk in the compensation, you're putting some of your compensation at risk. The very next level after that is to actually become the client. You come up with a great idea, the client doesn't buy it and you think, "Well, we could do this. We don't actually need a client for this."

DAVID: Yeah, I don't think I've ever worked with a good client of mine, and probably the same would be true for you, where they have not dreamed of doing something like this. Partly because they do realize, like you've said, and it's hard not to be inspired as you're talking about this. They've dreamed about the opportunities for themselves, but also they see inside so many companies and they walk out to the car after the meeting and they're just shaking their heads, looking at each other, the two of them that were in that meeting. And if they decide to even voice what they're thinking, this is what they say. It's like, can you believe the level of incompetence we just experienced in there? And yet this is the company run by some of these incompetent folks. I'm overstating it here. But run by some of these incompetent folks who they made billions of dollars and their ideas don't seem all that better than mine.

DAVID: How come I'm here and they are there. With that level, I've told people all the time, kind of joking, but somewhat serious. The level of incompetence in the world around me is a constant source of hope, because-

BLAIR: We're going to put that on your tombstone.

DAVID: Yeah, probably because somebody was flying a plane, I went down and, and they were incompetent. Yeah. But that level of incompetence around me is a constant source of hope. And you see folks who are owning these firms and they can't even hold back ideas even when they're not getting paid for them. Right? And then they see how the ideas fall flat a little bit and they think, "Shoot, I could do that." But then they're faced, if I could sort of talk about the flip side of this, they're faced with a different sort of reality.

DAVID: I was asked I think about 15 years ago by Steven Heller. He's a multiple New York Times bestselling author that works in the design field for the New York Times. And he asked me if I would write the opening chapter for a book that he was writing, and he had gathered several authors and the book was called the Education Of A Design Entrepreneur. I knew of Steven, but I didn't know him as a friend or anything, even as a colleague. And I was really flattered that he asked me to write this thing.

DAVID: So I wrote it and I was really proud of it too. And I sent it to him and Steven was not as proud of it as I was. He said, "What you're doing, David, is you're really just, you're just discouraging people." And I said, "Well, I've had lots of clients who have had these dreams and that what they don't understand is that it takes much more than a great idea. Great ideas are a dime a dozen. What it really takes in the world that you're talking about, Steven, is that it takes funding. So there has to be capitalization, there has to be distribution, and there has to be manufacturing. The idea and the marketing are the easy parts. There are these other parts."

DAVID: Anyway, he reluctantly agreed to publish that chapter like I had written it. Then I noticed that the book came out in the second edition and I noticed that the chapter was missing entirely. The second version. This was his way of saying, "I should've done this in the first place because David's just being too realistic here. And I don't want to discourage," because you and I both have a lot of examples of people who have done exactly what you're saying. And in almost ... Well I don't know what the percentage is, but in almost every case, they've made a whole lot more money from that than they would have or did make with the firm, the creative firm that they were doing essentially adding value to other people's businesses, to take it back to the example that you were talking about, right? So, yeah, I completely get it.

BLAIR: Yeah. And you said, you know, in most cases you need manufacturing and you need distribution. So let's say you're a branding agency and you think you're really good. And I said to you, "Okay, you need to launch a product and you don't have a lot of money for manufacturing or you don't have the wherewithal to crack into distribution, what product would you launch?" And I think the answer, I think it's getting more difficult now because it's quite a competitive space, but for 20 years it wasn't. I think the answer is coffee because coffee, you can private label it and you can do a little micro coffee, local brand in your local market and go get distribution yourself. And then distribution is solved with a lot of products via the Internet. So you can start out in retail and move to that world. If you decided, well I wanted to do beer or soda, those have distribution challenges, right?

BLAIR: So anybody could do a coffee brand. And that's just one example. I'll tell you a story. So in October of 2018, I'm speaking in Adelaide, Australia, and I'd spoken in Adelaide a few times before and before my talk, it's to the Australian Graphic Design Association. So Adelaide's in wine country, everybody's milling about beforehand, having a glass of wine. And a young designer comes up to me, his name is Adam Carpenter. Maybe he's not as young as we used to be, but he's younger than me and he said, "Hey, I want to thank you. I saw you speak here eight years ago and you inspired me to launch a gin brand." And I said, "Really? What did I say?" He said, "Well you said, don't wait for the client if you have a great idea, just launch it." I said, "How's it going?" He said, "It's going great."

BLAIR: So you can look this up. Prohibition Gin in Australia. He said, "We won some national tasting awards, got national distribution. Now we're winning international awards, we're getting international distribution launch and we're moving into whiskey." And he said, "A month ago, a couple of blocks from here, I opened my own bar and I moved my design studio to the back of the bar." So if you look up Prohibition Gin, we can include this in the show notes, and toolbox design, you can see it. He's opened this tasting room. It's beautiful. So he launched the brand. It's really, if you're going to launch a spirits brand, you want to start with the vodka or gin because those are the two easiest to do and whiskey is more difficult, etc. But I thought that was a great example of somebody taking his design scale, and rather than, "I want to work with a spirit brand," he created the brand and that's just one of many examples. It's one of the most recent ones. And I find it completely inspiring and everybody I share that story with finds it inspiring as well.


DAVID: Here's another example. I was working in Austin this week and I had breakfast with a fellow named Nat Eliason. I read his blog and I find it fascinating, and I just wanted to connect with him. I wanted to kind of get inside his head and he told me about doing something similar. His company is called Cup & Leaf. He just started from scratch, had this idea. The reason I mention it is because he talks about how he did it, like all the steps, all the SEO, steps where he gets the stuff, you know, talks about how successful it's been, how it's grown quickly and we could go on and on. And if nothing else, it kind of keeps you interested in your business. And actually the very worst thing that could happen is that you put yourself in your client's shoes and you understand how hard it is to do some of these things. So you're a little bit more realistic about it.

DAVID: But I do find it so incredibly inspiring, and it's not just a product, right? You and I are working more and more with digital firms and they're developing APIs, plugins, software. Think about, you know, some of the most widely installed software in this industry was started by another firm, right? We could just go on and on, and in every case these firms have turned an idea into something that took them in a completely different trajectory. And from the very beginning, their peers were admiring their courage and then they were admiring their success. And even if it didn't succeed, they still admired their courage.

DAVID: So I know people have ideas that would fit this model that you're talking about. These folks, including you and me, we're optimistic to a fault. How do we know which ideas are good ones? Right? Because the person who loves riding bikes is not always going to be great at running a bike shop, because shoot now it's open six days a week. I don't ever get to ride a bike. Now I've got to hire employees. How do you judge these sorts of ideas and dismiss the ones that are just a little bit fantasy like?

BLAIR: Well I think another good first place to start is something that you just referenced, and you said technology that spun out of an agency. So Function Fox as an example. Their product is time blocks, a very successful time tracking, hosted time tracking service. It spun out of Suburbia Advertising in Victoria, British Columbia and has gone on to become a very successful company. So the first place you can look is just ask the question, have you created some technology for your agency that could scale? And so, a helpful way to think about this is this idea of the bundled or the unbundled corporation. And there's a Harvard Business Review article from 1999, the authors are John Hegel the third and Mark Singer, and I looked it up recently. It's been a while since I looked at it. But the idea of the bundled or unbundled corporation is that in many businesses, there are three different separate businesses and they break down along the lines of these functions.

BLAIR: The first is customer relationship management. So you think of that as the brand, building a brand and establishing a relationship between the audience and the brand. The second is product innovation. So you think of that as conceiving of and developing new product ideas and then commercializing them. And then the third is infrastructure management. So the infrastructure that you build to run your business. So the author's thinking is that many businesses are three of these different businesses combined and some are just one. And in some, it makes sense to spin out, unbundle the corporation and break them up. So an example of a CRM or customer relationship management business might be Calvin Klein.

BLAIR: You think of, well Calvin Klein doesn't manufacture anything. They don't distribute anything. They run ads, build a brand. And it's really just six people in New York who listen to pitches all day. How about you put your brand on these eyeglasses? No, no, yes, no. They're not in the business of manufacturing, they essentially license that brand to the people who manufacture and distribute already. And they might have some distribution relationships. I'm not sure. So product innovation, you think of Apple as a product innovation company, they command a premium. I think agencies tend to fall into the product innovation or innovation space. One of the hallmarks of an innovation business is it's filled with highly paid creative people that you have to coddle. And it's a culture of creativity.

BLAIR: Now, the third area, infrastructure management, this is what I'm alluding to, you develop some infrastructure, time tracking, project management apps, something else to help the business run better. And you look at that, it takes a lot of investment. But once you've made the investment, you realize, "Oh, this scales." And the first question you get is, my competitors could use this. If you've developed something that you think you could possibly sell to your competitors, that is an infrastructure play that it might make sense for you to spin off and launch a separate business. And that's exactly what Function Fox and other businesses like that are.

BLAIR: So that's the first place I think you should look is, have you developed infrastructure in the form of technology or anything else where it's obvious that you could sell this to your competitors?

DAVID: Yeah, and I would think if we go back 20 some, 25 years, the most common example of doing that sort of a play would be a homegrown CMS, where people developed it and there probably isn't a digital firm on the planet that hasn't thought about building out their CMS in a way that it could be licensed to other people. But after the idea is done, then it requires some different thinking and it probably, if you don't already have that ability to think very differently about how to take the idea to market, then it probably means partnering with somebody who does things like a product map, looking at things from a user's perspective rather than your own perspective, funding, distribution, licensing, all of those things. And the stories that we can tell of our clients who have done this have all managed that part of it really well.

DAVID: The difference is not in the quality of the idea, the differences in the disciplined execution of that, right? And in some cases, like you said, maybe they just need to license it to somebody else. In other cases, maybe they can do it themselves. I've had whole clients that have just dumped their traditional creative business and are now doing something different. I've got a woodshop below me where I'm talking right now and most of the equipment is made by Powermatic and that's a Tennessee company that's I think almost 100 years old. Anyway, they were a lumber mill and they just got tired of constantly having to reinvent the machines that came along and they decided, "Well, listen, the world doesn't need another lumber mill. What they really need is better equipment for all those lumber mills," and so they just morphed and became wildly successful compared to what would've happened if they had just stayed as a lumber mill.

DAVID: And I think about that in those terms too. When I'm talking with one of my clients and say, "Listen, does the world need another firm like yours? Maybe, but it's a tough slog. But the world probably does need whatever it is that that great idea that you have. Why not devote some time to make that happen?" I just get excited thinking about it. What I don't get excited about though is somebody who always has a new idea and never devotes enough time to fully test that idea out. They're always bouncing from one to the next. Some of my product design companies are the best example of this, where I think it's exactly what you were saying really. They had an idea, they were working with a client, the client wasn't that interested in doing anything with it. There's a firm in Columbus that's really good at this and they have developed so many interesting things because they like to make things. They have the equipment, they're in these high level conversations and all of a sudden these opportunities come up. They kind of look at each other, jot something down and right after the meeting they know Paul who runs the place, Paul's thinking, "Ah, I just had an idea and I'll bet Jan had the same idea. I can't wait to talk to them on a break." So it's just, it's exciting all the way around.

BLAIR: Yeah, and you keep coming back to the point of the execution and it's hard to execute on this. And if you think back to the bundled or unbundled corporation idea, each of these three different businesses, CRM, product innovation, infrastructure management, they all have different cultures. So to execute on these things, you almost always have to spin them off into their own businesses, because the culture of an infrastructure management play is different than the culture of a product innovation play. Infrastructure management is all about the pursuit of efficiencies, you're selling to your competitors, you are trying to deliver at the lowest cost possible price, therefore you're trying to achieve some sort of production advantage. So culturally it's just quite different from a creative firm.

DAVID: Yeah, and you've talked often about how the sales process is very different too, selling in those two environments are so different.

BLAIR: Yeah. I'm sometimes asked for guidance on selling things that are like really scalable and productize and it's just not really in my wheelhouse. You know, our entire business is focused on helping you sell those in this customized engagement, where every engagement is a creative act. And as we've said before, every compensation plan with every client is a creative act.

BLAIR: There's something that you said earlier, I don't remember what it was, but it just led me to want to talk about the point that there are entire types of firms or swaths of the creative/marketing firm segment that are super right for this. And the one that is so obvious to me today is in video production. If you run a firm that is in the video production business, you are fighting an uphill battle because the tools of video creation, shooting, editing, everything under the banner of production, animation, everything, the tools are widely distributed and commodified.

BLAIR: So everybody's got them, prices are going down, you're fighting a losing battle. So what I've started to say to people in that space when they're asking about positioning, is I say, "You know, look at the value chain. Video skills have never been really more relevant and they're not valuable because there's no scarcity anymore. They're actually quite common, but they're still really valuable. You're just in the wrong place in the value chain." So I think if you're running a video production company and you're thinking like, "How do we fight this losing battle?" I think you should take the skills that you have and turn them on yourself and instead of a fee for service business model, where you're trying to sell your services to somebody else in the value chain, you should look at creating a video based product.

BLAIR: And the best example I can think of this today, that many of our listeners will know him, his name is Chris Doe. His studio is called Blind. It's an Emmy Award winning studio out of Santa Monica, California. And a few years ago he decided that he ... He's basically in the space that you and I are in David. He's advising creative entrepreneurs on business practices and sales practices, and he's doing it through video. And so he launched a platform called The Futur with no e on the end of it. And you look at the production quality of the material that he's putting out into the world, the viewership that he's building, he's very clearly building a platform. He's over half a million YouTube subscribers and growing. I'm a big fan of what he's doing.

BLAIR: I don't profess to have too much inside information on what's going on behind the scenes, but I look at what he's doing with Blind the studio. This isn't a comment on his studio. Again, I don't have the. I know that's just a tougher and tougher business to be in, producing videos for others. But taking those skills of his team and creating the product, and the product is essentially a learning product for young creative professionals all over the world. That is a brilliant move. So I think there's just something about the video production space and we could probably think of a couple of others, but that would be at the top of my list is, if you are in that space and you have these skills, it's very hard to sell these skills at a profit. But you should think about creating, using those skills to create a product and be the client.

DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a good example of that, I was working with a firm late last year, just wrapped that up, called Conscious Minds. They're an LA studio as well. And they just did their own Netflix documentary, right? It was picked up by Netflix. It's really good. It's about social media and kids. I love listening to it, watching it, and that has big potential to fail. Big potential to make a lot of money. But here we're talking about exponential difference if it hits well, which it has. And another great example, which I mentioned earlier, maybe it was what prompted you to say this is the product design side for sure. Industrial Design, app development folks, not so much traditional design, but some of these other areas are really ripe for it.

DAVID: So before we end this, what would you want somebody listening to this to do a little bit differently as they listened to this and it peaks their interest? What would you want the difference to be for them?

BLAIR: I think that's a great question. I think it's not so much run out and start a company, run out and be the client. I'd just say be open to it. And again, there's this progression of where you go from kind of an efficiency seeking firm to letting go of efficiencies and you start to pursue the idea of value based pricing. It starts to trigger more entrepreneurial thinking. I would have you see this at the other end of the spectrum from the pursuit of efficiencies. It's a byproduct of innovation. It's a byproduct of thinking about the ... It's basically innovating for the client and not waiting for the client. And when you start to think really entrepreneurial for your clients, you will start to think more entrepreneurial for yourself.

BLAIR: Here's a quiz I like to post to agencies. Weyden and Kennedy has worked with Nike for 37 years. Without professing to know anything about the relationship, why doesn't Nike fire Weyden? What would be their biggest fear? And the answer I always get is Nike fears Weyden would go work for Adidas. And I think that's the wrong answer. I think the answer, Nike's fear should be that if they fired Weyden, Weyden would go to an investment bank and buy a startup running shoe company like Newton or somebody else like that and build the new Nike.

BLAIR: And if I were running Weyden or any other agency where I was clearly adding value to my clients business and had a track record of doing it, that's the way I would think. So if you have this great client where you feel like you're adding a ton of value and the client doesn't, and you're thinking of what's plan B, it might be a gorilla client that represents over a quarter of your revenue. What's plan B? Plan B is if you lose the account is to go after one of their competitors. Plan B maybe should be to go to an investment bank and build the new company that will destroy your former client.

DAVID: I love the way you say that, because I know you mean it too. So the way we titled this was be the client you want to see in the world. It's a great way to end, and while we don't normally ask folks to do this, I think it would be fun, after you've listened to this episode to comment on it, give us your thoughts, your feedback, and just tag it two, the numeral two, Bobs on Twitter. Both of us will try to respond and give you feedback. It'll be an interesting discussion. So Blair, this was, as it turns out, this was an excellent topic. Thank you.

BLAIR: Ye of little faith. Thank you, David. That was fun.

DAVID: Yeah, we'll talk next week.

Marcus dePaula